TAPE 0:00:00


...I'm in Lewisberg Penitentiary... that's the big issue...


...What am I charged with? ... I'm charged with murdering two US

federal marshals and the wounding of several other officers...

...I don't know?


00/55... Where would you like to start? ...

...ookay, we went to, when I say, that's my father, my mother,

myself, scott faul , david broer and a number of other people, we

rode together to this meeting...


...1/17... the meeting was essentially uh, a , conservative,

rightwing politcal meeting, more or less, our objective was to try

and establish what's called a townshiop govt. and the object in that

is to try and curb federal expansionist powers over the everyday

lives of individuals...


we arrived at the meeting a little bit late, and uh, the meeting

was essentially, just getting started when we got there... there were

apx. 20 people...

the meeting was held at the clinic of Dr. Clarence Martin of

Medina, this was Feb. 13, 1983...


2/17...and we had been working on these things for quite some time,..

we had been working with some farmers in an attempt to try and keep

them from losing their farms which were being foreclosed on very

rapidly and still are today...


at any rate when we got to the meeting we had many debates that

went on for several hours...2/45...

and we didn't come to a resolution as to how we were going to

finalize this project... 2/55...

the issue of the debate was the actual citizenship of the

township govt. and who would be allowed to be citizens and who would

not be allowed to be citizens... and this gets into quite a bit of

other things which we'll probably get into later...



3/30... as the meeting closed, we went out to the north side of the

clinic and were preparing to leave and noticed that someone was

sitting donw at the end of the street in a pickup and he was watching

us with binoculars...



and we watched him for a while and we debated...3/56... whether

we aught to go up and ask him what he wanted and basically what he

was up to...and we decided to calle the local chief of police...who

we happened to have known pretty well, he had been to some of our



...4/10...and we called him anduh, we mentioned this to him and

he didn't seem to be too disturbed about it...his name was darrel


4/23... I remember when Scott came over to our farm that morning

he mentioned to us that a friend of his in Harvey had heard an apb

come over his scanner and it sounded like scott's car and scott had

mentioned this to us on the way down to the meeting...

4/48... and, when we were at the meeting, after we had called

darrel the first time...scott decide to have dave broer call darrel

back and ask him about this apb, we wanted to know what the license

number was on it...scott and I got on an extension telepnone and

darrel gave him the license number and it was scott's car...5/17...we

found out later it was a phoney apb...that was deliberately put out

to create a sense of extreme danger...

...the person that put it out was apparently a US marshal by the

name of wigglesworth...5/35...

...from fargo, and as far as the info. for this apb, he claimed

that he had info. from somebody, but he wouldn't reveal who that

somebody was during the trial ...and I have an idea who it was... I

don't know if I should get into that right nnow...

6/04... no, I think it was somebody that was planted within our


there was somebody involved that had supposedly worked for the

CIAyears ago and he admitted this to us and we knew that he had close

contact with this US marshal Wigglesworth... 6/29...

...but, we really didn't know in what compacity it was, we

thought it was just due to the various brushins with the law...this

guy was involved quite a bit with paralegal work ...he spent a lot of

time in court and he would run across these us marshals , he

apparently did have a pretty close relationshiop with this guy and he

had mentioned him to us a number of times... the peculiar thing is ,

the marshals obviously knew who he was , but his name was never

mentioned during court and I found out, immediately after the

incident, he fled to Canada...7/10...


and he was never pursued and he was heavily involved in these

meetings with us...and I think his role was that of an



no...7/31(good scrapping metal sound)...Politics are politics...


7/39... we called darrel and went back out to the car and I

remember we had brought some, we'd brought some potatoes for some

people at the meeting or they'd brought some for us, at any rate we

exchanged the potatoes...we drove the car around to the other side of

the clinic and we parked it...


...and we went into the cinic and due to various things that had

happened in the past...I felt uneasy about this, probably more than

my father did, and scott was uneasy himself due to the fact that

there was an apb was out on his car and the apb in fact stated that

my father and a man by the name of rusty kouba , were apparently in

scott's car on whatever specific date it was and they were heavily

armed , there two other people with em and they were enroute to

Minot, ND to kill the local sheriff...8/45...

...and the apb was a total fabrication of somebodies

imagination, I don't know for sure who's? ...8/54...

...although like I say, I have my ides...I do think the

intention of the apb was to create a sense of extreme danger in any

patrolman or such that would try to stop this automobile at any

particular time...scott ...9/10...at the same was thinking possibly

this apb was directed toward him because he had been involved for

quite some time in our little rightwing community up in ND, he had

fought the income tax up there, he had been involved in the public

education...he had taken his children out of public


they were going to a private school... and he had quit a bit of

problems over that...and he wasn't sure exactly what this


...now, myself I thought that it was probably directed towards

my father ...9/53... and I thought that , anything was possible and

it was, we were heavily armed. We were always heavily

armed...10/07...I was always heavily armed...I guess since I was 14 I

carried a gun with me everywhere...


10/29...why did we carry guns all the time? I started shooting

when I was five years old...I was hunting by myself by the time I was

seven. My brother and myself...and uh, we knew the value of guns ,

the constitutions was part of our upbringing... we were very pro-

constitutionalist...the right to keep and bear arms was a right and

like all other rights if you don't use it, you eventually lose



...and it was more or less an exhibition, I think to say, we

have a right to do this , we should be doing it. rather than

gradually letting these rights erode away...

11/16... at the same time, I lived in texas for a number of

years on and off and I lived in colorado for a while...I"ved always

carried a gun with me, like you would carry a watch with



11/40... we drove around to the south side of the clinic, my

father, myself, we went back into the clinic , I don't remember if

dave came into the clinic, scott came into the clinic...I went and

talked to dad by myself, just in case, I decided that it would be

best if he and I changed clothes...


12/18... well, I thought by changing clothes, in case there was going

to be an attempt on his life, which I thought was entirely

possible...most americans are real naieve, they think the

constitution or the law is going to protect them. It's because they

don't understand politics. And politics is simply activity in

relationship to power...12/38...


...and the reality of politicis is covered with propaganda. but,

the reality is still there and people are killed by the federal govt.

all the time. All federal govt.s, all governments, they do


and uh, at any rate, my father had been involved more or less in

the rightwing movement thru the fifties, and the sixties and the

seventies...and over these years, naturally he had become pretty well

known, to the point where, I don't think to the point where we were

actually at the point of organizing some kind of power ourselves, but

the potential was there...13/31...

you know, as the country grows and expands at this point in

time, the influx of aliens, the crime rate going up, farmers losing

there farms, the small businesses going down, the potential for an

organization becomes a reality and they know this. ..13/52...


...and it's a natural consequence for power to try to retain

it's own power...14/00 ...and, at any rate, we can get into this

later on. I guess.


14/08... at any rate...I ended up changing coats with my father.

and I took his cap and dave broer had been planning to come up to our

place for quite some time anyway...I reload ammunition...and he had a

45 automatic and I had loaded quite few 45 rounds and I was going to

give him some of these things...so he was going to come to the farm

and pick some of these things up......14/38...


so, I told dave, I said, look why don't you just let dad ride

with you ...I said, I'll take the car, I said, I don't know what's

going on here...but, I think it might be the best thing to do...he

said, sure,... it wasn't something we could really get together and

say this was happening or that was happening, because we had no idea

what was happening...15/04...


...cause we had no idea of what was happening...you know, if I

had had any idea that there was going to be any kind of a shoot out,

I wouldn't have taken my mother along... 15/13...


...although the govt. claimed that we took my mother along for a

decoy which is absolutely rediculous...


15/30... they led. and we went our normal route back towards

the farm...I remember just before we left the clinic, just as we were

leaving there was somebody there that drove up and said, heh, I think

you guys are being set up ...and that was all they said... 15/52...


...and exactly what that meant at the time , could have been

anybodys guess... well if I did I wouldn't say...


16/26... well that's as good a guess as any I guess...


16/43... Dave Broer, he led and I drove behind him. Vernon

Wegner , a police officer from Streeter, ND, who also attended our

meetings, he rode with us...more or less because he drove to the

meeting with Dave Broer...I asked Vernon if he wanted to ride with us

or go with Dave or catch a ride with Len Martin and he said, yeh,

he's ride along with us...


17/16... So, we took off, and I remember as we were leaving

there was a ramcharger that drove off down the street past us, they

were driving very rapidly...so much so that we noticed em... I looked

in the mirror and seen they made a U-turn and they came around and I

seen em coming back down the street behind us, so I kept an eye on

em...and we turned at the intersection going north towards our

farm... 17/47...


...and as I turned the intersection ...I seen em turn and follow

us... so as we were driving out of town we had driven probably about

a half a mile... I remember Vernon saying to me, heh, that

Ramcharger's really coming...and I looked bacck and I was watching

him in the mirror and it was obvious he was really putting it down,

he was probably running 80, 90, maybe a 100 MPH...because he was

really gaining on us fast ...18/23...

...and I remember ssaying, yeh, he's definately coming at us.and

so I assumed that he was something, but I didn't know what or who he

was...and I remember I almost shot past dave becaause dave had pulled

over in a driveway, ...18/40...


...about a mile north of town, and I was watching the mirror and

I was only watching the road with my peripheral vision, so I just

happened to glance down in time to see that he had pulled off, so I

hit the brakes and pulled in beside him...at this point I don't

remember for sure, right around this point in time, I think it was

right after I turned that I seen there were two cars in the road, way

down the road in front of us, maybe 3/4's of a mile or possibly

farther ahead of us...

19/22...Dave begin to back his car out and he backed up maybe

ten feet and then he turned back to the south a little bit and he

went ahead maybe another ten feet and this Ramcharger came flying up

over the hill...19/40...

...and I rolled the window down in the car, it was an electric

window , I rolled the window down and this ramcharge, I seen him come

flying up over the window and I seen the gun out the window , so I

was hollering at my dad in the other car and I was pointing back

behind us...19/59...

...and, I remember scott faul said to me, What in the Hell is

this, I said, I don't know scott, and at this point the ramcharger

was sliding up in front of Dave's auto. and as they were coming to a

stop, both doors were open, the marshal on the passenger side, which

I didn't know was a marshal at that time , he was already stepping

out, even before the vehicle had come to a stop and he had a riot

shotgun with him... 20/37...

...and, the marshal that was driving, he had , at that time I

didn't know what it was, I knew it was an armorlite weapon, it turned

out to be an AR15. and , he was aiming it at us...specifically I

couldn't say who he was aiming it at, because we were pretty

congested at the time...21/00...

and the other marshal, he got out and stood behind the door for

a minute...and I seen the other guy in the back seat, he was trying

to come out...21/18...

...and I remember, this I remember the guy in the driver's seat

and the guy in the back seat when they first drove up and the guy on

the passenger side had jumped out and he hollered, something which we

interpreted as , "You're going to die"...21/44...

...and, I mean we all heard it, and we all thought we heard the

same thing, which later after we talked about it, we all heard the

same thing, obviously, and these other two guys that were still in

the ramcharger, they were laughing...22/03...

...and at this point, this is exactly the point in time when I

told scott, I said, I don't know, I'm getting my gun and I said, I'm

getting out. I opened the door and I stepped out. And scott almost

immediately behind me did the same thing....

...I told my mom as I was getting out, I said, get on the


...and, which she did, the guy that was driving the ramcharger,

I remember him screaming specifically, "We're going to blow your

fucking heads off...22/42... we're going to blow your fucking heads

off, he kept this up for quite some time...he was real erratic...his

name was Robert Chesire, he was a US deputy Marshal I beleve from

Bismarck, ND...22/57...

...I never seen any of em before, except, the possible exception

of this deputy sheriff that was riding along with the marshals, he

was riding in the back seat...his name was Bradley Kapp and he was

the deputy sheriff from medina, they tell me that he was at one of

our meetings one time,...and I'm not sure that I know him because I

didn't recognize the name...23/34...


...and when I saw him, course when he came to court he was real

cleancut, but out there on the day of the shootout, he looked like

something that just crawled out from under a bridge...23/44... he had

long hair, a long beard, he was wearing a black leather jacket, he

looked like something you'd expect to jump off a Harley


...24/06... I got out of the car, I don't remember if I saw

scott get out, but I heard him getting out...and I kept my eye on the

driver's side who was screaming at us that he was going to blow our

fucking heads off. He was aiming at me... 24/28...

...my father got out right after this also, I looked around

there was no place to take any cover...and in case shooting started,

I certainly didn't want all of us to be in one spot...so I started

walking toward the telephone pole which was apx. 90 degrees to the

side of the ramcharger, and uh... as I was walking, I remember the

guy was aiming at me...25/04... and I was holding my rifle more or

less down on my hip and I was pointing it back at him...as I was

walking, I couldn't aim at him as I was walking...so I could point at

him, and he followed me with this rifle of his until I got over to

the telephone pole and then he aimed at my father... this was Robert

Chesire, and when I got over to the telephone pole...25/36...

...I looked the situation over and I took an aim at Robert

Chesire, who I later learned was Robert Chesire, the guy on the

driver's side of the ramcharger...and he had his door open and he was

behind the door, and he was down pretty low, he had his rifle out

thru the V of the door...and he was aiming at my father... 26/06...

...I don't remember the timing of events here, the actual

sequence, I remember that there was this other marshal who got out on

the passenger side, somehow he'd gotten into the ditch and I could

tell there was something going on between dave ...26/25...and

somebody, I couldn't see him anymore, because he'd gotten over to the

ditch, where I just couldn't see anymore...well, behind one of em, I

couldn't tell where he was at...later I learned that he was telling

dave to come out of the car and come over to the ditch with him

...26/46... this guy's name was hopkins, I don't recall his first


...27/10... at any rate, it wasn't long , I remember, uh, the

guy that was in the back seat of the ramcharger , he came out of the

ramcharger and he stood by the passenger door, aiming at dave or my

father or somebody in that area...

....27/31...in the meantime scott had left the sight of the cars

and walked almost straight west near a trailer house that was at the

end of the driveway. and I didn't know this because this was behind

me , you know I couyldt take my eyes off the situation


...at any rate, at a certain pint in time here, the guy that was

driving the ramcharger, he began to scream consistantly, we're going

to blow your goddamn heads off, over and over and over, and uh, while

he was doing this, this may have been done as a diversion or

something, I don't know, it was strange, it's something I still think

about a lot...28/26...

...because he just kept screaming it over and over,...he

obviously got our atteniton, anyway when he did this I remember the

other officer who had gotten into the ditch, he jumped up and he ran,

and I seen him get up and start running...28/44...


...towards our car, and when he did I hollered to my father, I

said, look out behind you, I took my gun off of the guy that was

driving the ramcharger, and I aimed at him, while he was still

running, and my father turned around and he aimed at him and they

were aiming at each other...29/01...

...and he was standing on the other side of our car and my

father he was standing right out in the open , and they were aiming

at each other and, my father told him to put his guy down and back

off... and Chesire, or who I learned was chesire later, went

absolutely frantic when my dad told him this, ... it was

unbeleiveable, at any rate, I took my gun back off of this gun and I

put it back on Chesire...29/35...

...and, it must have been about this time that things started

happening...I remember I was aiming at Chesire...well, there was one

other thing that did happen...and I'm not exactly sure if it happened

before this or just about this time...the other cop that was in the

backseat , who had gotten out on the other side, with the beard and

the long hair. he walked around to the backside of the ramcharger and

he aimed his shotgun at me. So, I took my shotgun off of chesire and

I aimed right between his eyes..and I guess he didn't like looking

down my barrel ...30/21...

...I had a mini14 and ah, when he saw that I was aiming right at

him... he was aiming at me too ... but, he scurried back around the

otherside of the ramcharger, back over there where it was a little

safer I guess. And at any rate, I remember right after the incident

where the officer ran up out of the ditch and over behind our car. I

put my aim back on chesire , and I was aiming at his head, which was

all that I could see...this was apparently when the shooting started.


...Now, whether I actually fired the first round or not , I

don't know and the reason that I don't know is because this all

happened extremely right here... I remember getting hit in the

chest...I remember thinking to myself that I had been shot from

behind... I mean it felt like it had took my lungs right


....and I remember thinking to myself, gee whiz, how did

somebody get behind me...I remember my gun going off...I don't, I

can't say I remember it going off the second time, there were two

rounds fired from my gun...31/50...

...in my mind it's still very, very, it's so close I don't know,

because I can specifically, to me if I had shot Chesire he wouldn't

have needed to be shot twice, you know, I mean at this range believe

me, I can't imagine myself missing him at all, at this


...maybe thirty feet, we're talking about real close range...and

I'm a real good shot, you know, and I had a full view of his head,

which is what I was aiming at...32/31...




...32/41... well, I remember thinking that we weren't going to

get out of this without some serious shooting...and although this was

during the confrontation, this was before this...because things were

really, in a bad situation...I know the US Marshals when they came to

court later they said, yeah, we were telling em we were US Marshals

and to put there guns down and all of this///and uh, specifically I

can remember them telling us, they were going to blow our fucking

heads off...33/20...

...and uh, you know, they're not going to tell us that...


...no they didn't say that anybody was under

arrest...33/38...and I'm positive of that, and I asked scott if he

heard anything like that, and I asked dave if he heard anything like

that. nobody heard anything like that... and I mean at this distance

if they'd been hollering, , everything else they were saying was

clear, you know...


34/13... well, I remember getting hit. I remember standing there

for a minute, or when I say a minute it was obviously a matter of

very few seconds, because I think the whole shootout lasted apx.

fifteen seconds...34/28...


...but it seemed like a long time. I remember getting hit and I

remember getting hit again . I couldn't tell for sure, where all I

was getting hit...34/42...

...I do remembver, at some point it was obviously when I got hit

by the double ought buckshot in my lower abdomen I remember it felt

like a redhot rod stuck in my guts and I really got sick over

that...34/58... (LAUGHS)

...that's an understatement...yeah, I hit the ground after that,

apparently after that. and I remember laying on the ground and I

could hear the shooting. Now the strange thing is I can't remember

hearing any shooting before I hit the ground, none...35/16...

...but I remember reading that the vietnam vets said, that a lot

of times you wouldn't hear rounds being fired. YOu'd be caught up in

someting so much, that you sometimes wouldn't hear them until after

you've been hit ...I don't know whether that's relevant or


I do remember taking note of that, up until the time I hit the

ground I didn't hear any shooting and after I hit the ground there

was a lot of shooting going on and a lot of it was directed at me

because the ground was wet , it had snowed, but the snow had melted

and the very top of the ground was muddy and the mud was splattering

all around me, from the bullets hitting the ground...and I tried to

get up twice ...36/16... and both thimes that I tried to get up I

remeber getting hit... I got my arm shot out from under me once...and

uh, then I hit the gorund again and I remember looking at my arm and

I was possitive that my arm was broke . possibly even shot off,

becaue it was in a position I culd never get it into... and , I tried

to get up again , I only had one arm left and I tried to push myself

up with that and I got shot thru my hand...36/52...

...my right arm... and it just seemed like after I got shot in

the hand that last time, I was just out of energy. I couldn't do

anyting I couldn't move. I was hurting real bad. at this point in

time I dind't know who'd been shot. and I remember laying there

thinking gee whiz, all of us just got wiped out...37/27...

...you know , I dind't know how many of them there were...I do

remember these other cars coming down, cause I could see them coming

in on us peripherally , but I couldn't take my attention off of these

other guys, to watch these other cars to see who they were ...so

conswequently, I didn't know who they were, I didn't even know how

many othem there were...37/53...

...yes, because of the situation, the ramcharger was maybe

fifteen feet from dave broer's car, so consequently by looking at the

one, I could necessarily see the other and I could see everyone

around them ...38/10...

... so I could see where he was at all the time...but I couldn't

specifically keep my eye on everybody thru out all of this...38/26...

...38/34... no, I remembver after the shooting stopped and I was

still laying there , and I thought I was dying, you know, because I

could feel my energy leaving real rapidly ...and I was certain that

was it, and I remember I heard something, like someone walking

towards me and it turned out to be scott ...and I don't know how far

away he was, but he hollered at me, he said, YOrie are you hit or are

you alright or something... and I said39/02...

...look scott I'm hit bad, I'm not going to make it, so you

better get out of here , I thought he was the only one left alive at

that point , I couldn't even lift my head up. and he kept walking

toward me and the reason I know this, I could hear him walking

towards me , although I wasn't looking in that direction because I

was laying with my face down, oppisotie away from him...I remember

when he was almost to me, he said, he stopped, he was startled,


...he said, what was that, who's that, who's that, and I said

who where, what are you talking about ? he said there's somebody

running down the ditch . he said who is It? I couldn't lift my head

up to see, I said I don't know scott...40/07...

and uh, I remember this came up later, apparently he had raised

his rifle and aimed at this person , not knowing who he was or what

his was doing , I guess, and uh, he never shot him. It turned out to

be Bradley Kapp , who after he had shot me and emptied his shotgun,

he took off running ...40/30...


...and I guess he ran up to the top of this hill and this chief

of police was up there , and, uh, apparently him or someone took him

to the hospital, or to the clinic, I don't know who that was,...


...40/47... anyway scott walked over to me and he held me up and

said , oh no, you're going to make it, you're going to make it..I

kept insisting I wasn't, I was certain that I wasn't...I just didn't

see any point in him wasting any effort or time there with me...once

he got me up, he half carried me, I was able to walk a little bit, I

guess, he carried me maybe 30 feet towards our car and then I just

had to stop, and he put me down there and for just a few seconds I

needed to rest and then I remeber he picked me back up again and took

me to a car , which I don't specifically rember , I remember getting

in the car and leaning my head against the headrest and ...41/41...

...and I remeber waking up right in front of the clinic...from

that point to the next p0oint that's all I remember...


41/54... yea, I lost my right kidney, and my gall bladder, I

guess my liver was shot up pretty good. my intestines had been

perforated, with quite a few holes, I don't know how much they cut

out, I guess they cut some intestine out that was irrepairable...uh,

I had a slight graze on my right lung, which I had some problem with

that, and uh, otherwise that's about all the parts that I



surprisingly well, ...


42/56... right I remember, going into the clinic, I remember,

scott was there, I believe it was at the clinic that I gave him my 45

which I had been carrying in my should holster, apparently this

marshal, the chief marshal, his name was muir, he had tried to shoot

me in the heart or the chest and he had hit my 45 , and I remember, I

had forgot all about my 45, with all the other interesting

activities, I remember as I was going into the clinic, scott tells me

that this is not right, this is the way I remember it, you know, I

remember as I was going into the clinic, I thought of my 45, and I

knew I wasn't going to be needing it , so I reached in to grab it and

I felt the handle, something had happened to it, and I remember

pulling it out and giving it to scott, I said my 45s been hit and I

said, look I'm not going to be needing this , at any rate, he took

it, I never even looked at it, I didn't even want to look at it, I

mean I was sick...44/22...

...and I went into the clinic and they took me over and layed me

on the operating table, and I remember laying there and I remember

bradley kapp was sitting there on a bench or on a chair, this deputy

sheriff and I still didn't know who he was...I mean, he was whining

and crying and carrying on...44/48...


...and, uh, doc martin he was real hard of hearing, I remember

telling doc, I did what I had to do and uh, doc was pretty worried I

could tell, he had known me all my life... 45/05...

and I remember Kapp was over they whining about something or

bleeding or something. I guess he was bleeding pretty good, but I

guess they weren't real serious wounds except for he did lose a

finger in the shootout...45/21...


...I remember doc told him, he kind of wheeled around on him and

he said look , you're going to be all right, he said, this man's

dying... and I was certain that I was anyway, and doc gave me a shot

of something to coagulate my blood or something , so I wouldn't bleed

so much internally , and I remember, that, it seems kind of funny, I

remember I had to get my boots off...45/48...


...seemed like an emergency, I had to get my boots off...I don't

know, it does seem kind of comical, but at that point in time it was

a real serious matter, the boots had to come off no matter what else

happened, they were killing, my boots were hurting me...mom and I

guess it was an ambulance driver ...46/15...

...helped my mom get my boots off and I guess they cut my shirt

off, it wouldn't come off otherwise...and you know I had a brief

little talk with my mom, still assuming that I was dying, I asked her

to look after my wife and kids and stuff for me, and not to worry

about it.. and of course she was , uh, I don't think she had all her

senses there , yeah, an extrememly emotional person anyway, she was

pretty frantic...46/54...



...47/40... well, who gets the right to define the term?...no,

he never broke a law in his life...

...47/56...well, uh, his organizational efforts in the tax

movement in texas , his invovlement with organizing the first charter

of the posse comitatus in texas and his various activities...


48/20... the Posse comitatus? the posse comitatus is something

that was develped under english common law as a means of the people

for defending themselves in case their representatives or their

overlords became abusive of their power...it was a means of them

taking into their own hands, power which they delegated to their own


...48/48... govt. is theoretically , govt is a servant...course

we know in reality this is not true, but uh, that's the theory of law

in this country...

...49/24... I think that what we've got is numberous small

groups scattered out across the country , more or less bound

together,,, similar ideas, the constitution, the so-called rights of

the people , even other things beyond that that tie these people



50/08 ...yes, it is, however, by it's own definition, the actual

idea itself, lends it toward an organization that will if necessary

take action...


50/53... well, I see for example, if we compare our incident our

activities , what happened to us, with the activities of the people

that initially started the revolution in this country...that

revolution was started in reality by England, although England had a

right to so by law, now that necessarily made those that were

resisting the tyranny of england , the taxes, the other monoplys

which were being established, which were contrary to the interests of

the colonists. that necessarily made the people that built this

country criminals...they became criminals because they said , no,

we're not going to take this anymore...51/46...


...we can't do it anymore...


51/53... sure, sure, his look at the law for example was that

the constituition was the supreme law of the land. that all officers

of the land are servants of the pepole , and are bound to protect and

defend the constitution of the US. Now, they all swear to do this ,

but there's not one in the country that does this...

...52/18 ...and that's because , politics, the real force...

they allow these ideas to float, because, people sometimes if they

believe they're free , even a slave if he believes he's free , you

know he'll be a happy slave...


...it's a complete illusion...but, freedom itself is such an

abstract term, what it means to one man, it doesn't necesarriy mean

to another...52/55...


53/03 ... well, he had...did he have freedom? I don't know?

..... 53/26... I don't know, that's a difficult question, cause what

does freedom mean? what does it mean?


53/54... I can only tell you what he's told me...various little

adventures he had in the war...he took the war very seriously at the

time... 54/07...

...he was like everybody else, you read the papers and get

emotionally charged up and do your patriotic duty, even if in the

long run it's not your patirotic dUty , but you don't know that at

the time...


...54/24 ...I know that he, uh, he was very sad, that he had

been led into that war blindly, like so many americans were, that the

result of that war firmly established communism in the east, it

shrunk the powers of western europe , the whole west, tremendous

depths, and it was designed to do that...


55/05... yeah, after the was, it was obvious that communism, was

a declared enemy of the west, openly declared . and yet at the same

time as he began to look into communism there was a big communism

scare here after WWII up thru the fifties and even up into the early

sixties...and uh, my father studied a lot, when he found out that we

built the soviet union, that we built that military machine that's

going all over the world , conviscating all the territory and

bringing it under it's own imperium...

...55/45...then he realized something was dreadfully wrong. Here

in the US our own tradition, our own laws are being overturned daily,

in favor of socialism, and by socialism, I mean socialism of an intl.


...which is quite contrary to a natl. socialism...


56/35... I know he kept his uniform for years and years and he

kept his medals on it and stuff. I remember one time when we were,

had gone to texas till the spring, and somebody had broke into the

house while we were gone and stole his uniform . he was kind of sad

about that, he had put his own blood on the line...


57/05... well, you know the strange thing is, I asked him a

couple years after he'd been to prison... when it dawned on me just

how corrupt the courts are ...and how much politics really rules

these ideas, these illusions of freedom and democracy , and various

rights that we're supposed to have, and I saw that was all a fraud...


...you know I asked him, I said, well, did you know that they

were gonna put you in prison when you went to court, he told me, he

said , yeah... 57/43...

...I said, why did you do that then? He said, well, because I

had the best case there was. He said, there was no better case to

beat this charge ...there was no better case, ...he said, I had to

prove to these other people that believed in the law, that believed

in the power of the constitution, that the constitution is





...I had to sacrifice myself to do that...and I asked him, would

you do it again? and he said, no I wouldn't do it again, he said,

there's no point in doing it again...


58/28... well, I rememer when Mr. reinhart was sent to prison , he

was sent to Stafford, AZ, ....I remember it was a very short period

of time, maybe a week or two, we found out he was dead...


and uh, this was really disturbing , we wanted to know what happened

and everything, and I remember, his wifes name was Kathy59/04...

and I knew these people real well, I'd lived with them for a

while,,, 59/16...

...I remember an inmate had called his wife and told her that he

had a number of inmates, I beleive it was 31 inmates, quite a number

of inmates, it must have been a whold cell block or something. that

would testify that he was murdered...59/35...

...that the inmates themselves kept him alive for a number of

hours , you know with mouth to mouth resustiation, and beating on his

chest, trying to keep his heart going...59/46...


...and the guards would come by periodically to see if he was

dead yet... 59/50...











00/35 ...yea, I think that was the trigger, although there are a lot

of guys that go on tv that don't go to prison. Tkhere's a lot of

guys out of the tax movement that never go to prison who make a lot

more noise about taxes than he ever did ...00/48...

taxes wasn't the real issue, his invovlement witht the posse

comitatus, his invovlmement with tht taxes, his understanding of how

the political sphere works in this country. Presented, at least to

the people that rule this country , the potential resourcefulness

that was there... potential leadership in this country is either

groomed into their ranks or it's eliminated. and if they can't

controll it, then it's either going to be put on a back burner

somehwere or eliminated altogether... 1/30...


...1/39... yeah, yeaaah, I think so, and I don't think it was

much his leadersh abilbities... because to have leaders you have to

have followers ... at the time, the time was ripe, the permian basin

was probably the largest explosion of tax resistence in the whole

country. there was the potential there for a real organization, and

they don't tolerate that unless they can control it. ...


2/19.. well, I remember she went back to ND and she just kept up

her pace, doing the things she alwyas did. I know she wrote to him

every day or two...and he was in prison, his actual time in prison

was probably 8 or 9 months. and three of those months were in

Springfield missouri where he was sent for psychiatric evaluation...

which is not an uncommon thing anymore...it's pretty easy to label

your enemies as pscyhophrenics or lunatics or someting to discourage

people from taking interest in them and I think this is a kind of

safe guard or something...3/20 ...


...3/44... ahhm, you know I look back at my life as a child and

my father he was always a kind of stable person ...he contained his

emotions real well, very quiet, soft spoken, always serious, very

serious, he was playful with kids , but otherwise he was serious,

evertyhtin was serious, not always urgent, but serious...4/23... he

was the type of guy that if somebody needed help, he'd help em, the

kind of guy who wouldn't pass up a hitchhiker without picking him

up...one those kind of guys... if he heard of a neighbor somewhere

that had a bad time , they didn't have food or something, he'd load

up a bunch of food and take it over, that's the way he was, even if

he didn't know em , just because he heard of it... and this was his


...Now, my mom was , was different in a lot of ways, she's very

emotinal which is typical of women...ahh, she didn't take thinkkgs

nearly as serious as my father did...my mom was much more

materialistic than my father...I look and I see my fther as a

spiritually motivated person, everything had it's cause...where my

mom, she was more of the type that looked at the superficial value of

things...much more, and consequently, this caused a number of

problesm thru the years. my dad was fighting for a cuase ...5/41...

it didn't matter if it cost him everything he had, including his

life, because it was something he believed in...5/51...

...whereas my mom she valued things different, well, you'd lose

this or you'd lose that, she never really saw the cause, that was his

business... she was busy taking care of the kids...


...6/26... I don't know, I don't know that it was ever really

worked out, ..now today my mom after looking back course you've

always got a hell of an asset with hindsight, but now she sees the

cause... she sees now all the things he said, what they really meant

back then, but that's the difference between vision and looking

back... 0700...


7/10... well, for the most part I don't think it really concerns

them that much... they're typical americans they live for today and

think that's sad, but I think that's the way it is...

...7/28... alll , virtually all of the children my sibling, were

very materialistic people themselves and out of all of them I was

like my father, the rest of them were like my mom...in the way we

looked at the world... I had four sisters and one brother... I'm the

oldest son and I have three older sisters. ...


8/15...well, once or twice a year I guess...


8/30 ... well the years that he farmed I was very y9oung, so I

probably couldn't answer that as well as somebody else ccould...


8/48... it was, expensive today to farm, if you don't already have

your machinery... he had been working in texas it finally got to the

point where he wasworking full time and not farming at all

...eventually it got to the point where he coulnd't do that any

more...because the IRS would just hound everybody to death... they

hounded the employer that he had, ...the only reason that they kept

him like they did, was because he was an asset that they couldn't

afford to get rid of...9/29...




...and uh, ...

...9/59 ... no, but he wouldn't take any money from the govt.

except his pension which was a disability pension, his view on that

was a little bit different, it was something sacrificed...


...10/35... well, I first met Bud while , we were in a US

Marshals holding cell , this was after the incident, we were waiting

for a hearing , and I remember bud came in and I had never seen him

before but scott told me who he was and I had heard of him a number

of times and , I remember walking up to him and he was taking my

handcuffs off ...11/03... and I remember looking up at him, he's a

real tall man...and I asked him, I said, what do you think of all

this bud, ...I remember he looked me in the eye for a minute and then

he put his head down and said, I can't tell you what I think, I'm

wearing a badge... 11/21...


...and the man is a gentelman, he, when they use the term peace

officer, it applies to him , he's the exception, he's not the rule,

he's a very honorable type of guy...I think a lot of him, I think he

was very naive over the years with his duties versus his concious

type of thing, and I think he felt that dad was right, he certainly

didn't see dad as a criminal ...he couldn't understand all the

pressure on this guy , at the same time he's aying this is my job,

this is my duty , it wasn't his duty, duty is really when it comes

right down to it, a matter of conscience...12/17...


...12/37... I guess this went on for several years...if I was,

it must not have been very important because I don't remember it...



...12/57... the paranoia???...




...13/11... I don't know? I don't know... well, I'll tell you,

we were having these meetings in ND. I reemember my dad and scott

faul, they went to visit with a guy down in Kansas, who headed an

organization for farmers, and uh, I believe he wwas the guy that lead

the big march on Washington DC ten years ago or whatever it was...

they had a meeting with him and they wanted him to come up to ND


...and they would set up the meetings and he would come up and

speak to these farmers , explain to them what's happening to these

farms, why they're being foreclosed on, what's really going on here

and uh, so we were setting up these meetins, ...


...and basically what it comes down to is these farmers are

going to lose their farms . They can't keep them, they don't

understand how money really works, they don't understand credit,...

some of these farmers have spent millions of dollars on their farms

and they still don't own em... it's paid in interest to the banks...


...and the small banks in turn are being foreclosed too, and

this process is going to get worse...14/35...



...the value of the dollar in this country has depleted so much

over the years that they 're continually having to induce it with

large quantities of money which further brings down the value ... at

any rate these farmers , as a matter of fact just this last year, I

don't remember how many farmers lost their property, but I do

remember that close to a hundred thousand were determined by the FHA

that they were going to have to foreclose on them and tha's a big

chunk of farm land to be taken all at one time and uh, at any rate,

you know it's the best for the farmland is in the hands of the

farmers, not the corperations and not the banks...15/25...

...so it seemed to us that this was something that was very

urgent , something that these farmers needed to be organized, these

farmers needed to know what was happening...with this credit system,

and how it was designed to exploit them and rob them in the end


...so we had set up several meetins in ND, and we had quite a

number of farmers that attended these meetings and of course we went

to these meetings armed... I went to the grocery store armed and it

wasn't that I was hiding these guns...I wore a 45 ...16/06...


...on my side most of the time, there wasn't anybody that knew

me that didn't know I carried guns...


16/25...well, let me tell you a little incident that happened,

we were down south and we found out that the IRS had filed a lien on

some of our farm property... we knew there was going to be no trial,

no hearing because that's not how they operate...16/51... now the

theory of law in this country of course, is that before someting can

be taken from you, you know, whether your time, your life, your

property, whatever, there is a process of law

involved...theoretically you're supposed to go to court and a jury is

supposed to hear the issues and determine these things, well , it

doesn't work that way... 17/11


...and especially so when you're talking about the IRS . The

IRS they seize things, and then if you can get it back well good luck

, uh, if you have any resources left to work with after they take it,

well, you're a real lucky guy...17/28 ...and uh, it may take you

years and you may never get it back and there's very little you can

do about that ...you can go to court and you can spend hundreds of

thousands of dollars fighting them and in the end inevitably lose one

way or the other...17/44...




...if they attack you, you're losing, and it's just as simple as that

, everybody that's been attacked by them , will tell you, that if

you're attacked, you're losing...even if you've won a victory, you've

won no victory at all, because their objective may not be to ruin you

...it may be to deplete your resources and therefore to pull you back

from whatever activities you're involved with...at any rate they put

this lien on our farm, or part of our farm, ...18/19... they had an

auction, or they attempted to have an auction but nobody bid on the

property... 18/27...


...I think that the reason for that, more than anything else,

because the price was real cheap, it was good farm land....was

because everybody knew what they were doing, as greedy as some of

these farmers are, they still didn't go for that, because everybody

knew what they were doing...18/52...


...and uh, we did find out however, that there were US Marshals

and possilby others at the auction that day , and I think their

attempt was to maybe to get my dad to come out in the open that day,

I don't know...I believe he was at the farm that day...


...19/45... at any rate, I know that these Marshals got very

nervous, because Scott Faul was at the auction and he had a camera

and a tape recorder , and he was taking piectures and he was making a

record of everything...and that made them real nervous and it does

make them real nervous, because they know what kind of crooks they

are...20/04...and theylike to do everythin withiout anybody



...20/22...I really , I do remember a probation officer coming

out to the farm one time and I remember him sitting in the liveing

room and they were talking about politics ...but all of these guys, I

remember an FBI agent who came out to investigate dad, me and dad

were standing in the yard , and I seen this car come driving in the

driveway, I said, gee whiz, what's this the CIA, the FBI, what have

we got here...and 20/56... it turned out to be an FBI agent , and he

come up with his nice white shirt and tie and he said, I'd like to

talke with Joan Kahl, which is my mother, you know that's suprizing,

...he didn't even ask who I was, he didn't ask my father who he

was... so I said, come on in...so I took him into the house and we

were all siting in the kitchen...and mom was either making coffe or

baking bread or something, he was sitting at the table and my dad was

sitting across from him and I was either sitting or standing off to

one side and I remember he said he was there, he said he was

investigating the murder of Judge Woods from San Antonio


...and he wanted to know if mom knew anything about it or had

heard anything about it and the reason for this by the way, the

reason they were interested in people in the tax movement concerning

this is because Judge Woods made a statement at one time which got a

lot of publicity down in texas , that, he said, I'm going to quote

this to the best of my abilbity, this is close, he said, let me have

all the tax rebels, I'll make sure all of them go to


...and this made, this made it's rounds and it made a lot of

people real mad...because here the guy was saying arbitrarily, to

hell with the law, I'm putting these people away, he was saying

beforehand, that these people were going down, that they had no

rights...22/39...and consequently, they naturally thought, since the

people in the tax movement had every reason to do this, let's check

them out... 22/51...

...23/01... No, in fact, I remember like for example this FBI

agent, he was sitting there and him and dad were talking about how

things were getting in the country and the crimerate and one thing

after another and another...23/17...

...and this guys sitting there and he agrees with him , yeah,

you're right , things are getting out of hand, the federal govt. is

getting too big, and they always do this to your face, they'll agree

with you a hundred percent , they'll talk about how terrible things

are here , and how terrible they are there and they'll turn right

around and shoot you...23/37...


...23/50 ... well, I don't know what their excuse is??? I really

have no idea,... I know Bud Warren came out and they had a meeting

and they talked about it and everything, and bud couldn't understand

what the big fuse was about...



...I know he was attempting to contact his superiors or somebody

and find out what in the world was the big ruckus, what's the problem

... here you've got a guy he's retired, he's not bothering anybody,

what is the problem... why all the pressure...


24/45 ... the plane crash, all I can tell you about the plane

crash is, I picked up the plane after it was wrecked, when I heard

about the incident, I immediately thought to myself, well, I don't

know what caused this, because the plane ran perfectly, it was in

excellent condition... I couldn't imagine what actually caused the

accident, but I felt something was terribly wrong...so I got in my

pickup , I was living in Minot, ND, and I drove down to the farm,

trying to find out what happened... and I remember when I was enroute

to the farm, I was running a 120 mph... and I remember I came around

a curve and there was a higway patrolman there and he saw me coming

and I never slowed down...not for him or anybody else and strangely,

I passed him and after I passed him , he turned around and went the

other way...25/56...

... that alone told me that gee whiz, they must be expecting me.

Beecause obviously I was driving as hard as my pickup would run and

it was obvious and jsut the fact that he turned around and went the

other way, that told me that they must be expecting me...so, right

away I'm thinking to myself, there must be something else going on

here too. ...so I went down to the farm and found out my dad was in

the hopsital, I went out to the plane, when I got to the plane there

was a guy there from the ...FAA, the federal aviation ad. he was

looking at the plane, it was raining out...26/51...

...I drove up and I asked him who he was and he told me who he

was , and I told him, this is my plane and he said, well I've got to

inspect the plane. that's my job, I said fine, he said I can't do it

here , I can't do it in this rain, I said, here's what I'm going to

do , I said, I'm going to take the plane over to the farm and I'm

going to tie the plane down , I said whenever you get the time come

on over and look at it. or do whatever you got to do...he said

fine... so I loaded up the plane , and when I loaded up the plane,

the plane was sitting in the ditch with it's nose up , and a friend

of mine helped me and we pulled the plane up on the road and when the

plane sat level, gas was runningout all over the place...now I didn't

think too much about it at the time and it didn't suprise

















00/03... so at any rate, I took the plane home and the gas ran out of

it, ran all over everything all over my pickup,,, then I went up to

fessenden , ND to the sheriff's office, because I hada 45 automatic

that I always left in my plane unless I got strandeed somewhere, and

a pilots folder...and for some strange reason this stuff had been taken

out of the plane... 00/47...


...and I wasn't sure who had it, I had heard the sheriff in

fessenden had it , I didn't even know who the sheriff for fessenden

was...I walked in and the guy from the FAA...1/01...



...Was there and there was another officer there, I beleive a

state patrol... 1/10...the sheriff, but I didn't even realize it was the

sheriff and I was talking to him ...I said, my names yori kahl and I'm

here looking for some property that belongs to me, he was real

snotty with me and said, yeah, what's that?... 1/26...

...and I said, I'm looking for a blue folded w/ my papers and

I'm looking for my 45 automatic...

...1/48... He said, do you have a permit for that pistol? and I

said, no, I don't have a permit for that pistol...and he said, if you

don't have a permit, you'll never get that gun back...1/58...

...well, I said, I will get the gun back ...and I said, I don't want

you ever to mention to me anything about a permit, again...2/08...

...and he gave me my pilot papers and I left... I didn't even

realize this was the sheriff I was talking to, I thought it was some

cocky cop... 2/17...

...so I came back later... and , he and I had a copuple of

different confrontations in his office over this gun, and he finally

gave me the gun back...2/37... and the man was a coward... I mean...

...2/45... strange thing, he said to me one time, and I

remembered it, because it was unusaul the way he said it to me, and

after all this happened and he came to court and testified in court

against me, and I found out he had been working with the US

marshals and stuff, trying to help them with my dad and stuff even

before the incident...3/00

...it dawned on me the statement that he made, he said, look I

know that I shouldn't have this gun, that it's your gun, he said, but, if

I give you the gun back , he said , the big dogs won't like it, and I

remembered the statement because of the strange way that he put


...and I didn't think anything about it at the time, I thought he

was saying that meaning that the law system the way it is, they want

everybody to have permits...to have permission to do everything, to

buy bread to sell milk...evrything...I didn't really realize the value of

that statement until after the incident, ...the big dogs he was talking

about...03/45... were these US marshals and I think they were tyring

to use the gun to create some kind of incident, I don't know... He

ended up making me real mad...and but he did end up seeing it my



4/08...what happened was dad was in the hospital, and we

got word that if we didn't get him out of there right away, we

weren't ever going to see him alive again and I can't tell you who

told me that, cause it could ruin somebody , but I believe it was good

info. and I believed it at the time, so I just went up to the hospital

and I took my father out and I left with him and sure enough it was

two hours later that the place was swarming with federal

agents...and so whterh or not we'd have ever saw him alive again we

can't really say, but on the other hand after all that we've been thru,

I wouldn't doubt it a bit...4/55...




...5/02... no, no, no, what are they going to do with the warrant?

He already served the time...they can't put him back in prison, what

are they going to do? ...5/13...

...he's already served more probation on it than the sentence

calls for...you know the maximam sentence is a one year sentence,

you know, what are they going to do with it? find him, shake their

finger at him, they're not going to put him back in prison (OUT PF

FOCUS ABOVE AND NOW) ...5/30... he'd already completely served the

first term .... the second term he had already done two years

probation on a maximum one year sentence, what are they going to

do with him...


6/15.... months, a matter of months... out of state and both...


6/55... my religious upbringing, I was raised under the

influence of very religiouos parents, especially my father, my mother

too, but not into the depth that my father was...he was the kind of

guy, he read everything, he read the history of the church fathers ,

everything, he was that kind of person with everthing, if he wanted

to study something he studied it and he studied it


...I remember when I was pretty young, maybe four or five, six

years old, my father was a mormon and he became a bishop of the

mormon church , and he became disillusioned with the mormon

church because as he started learning about Free Masonry , he saw in

free masonry, because he had been to the temple in Salt Lake City

and he had gone thru the rituals... he saw that they were exactly the

same as the Masonic rituals, the little apron and everyting...8/14...


...and he didn't know that at the time, because he didn't know

that much about masonry, when he began learninga about masonry

and he saw that the mormon church was a shoot off of Masonry


...and of course we found out later that Joe. Smith was a mason

and naturally he inc. into his church the various rites and rituals of

maonry which is where they came from... my father went to see one

of the high represtnataive of the church out in Montana and they

ended up gettin ginto a pretty heated argument over this and my

father quite the mormon church over that, because he saw that it

was a fraud, and he did remain a christian, he remianed more or less

indepedent after that...9/11...

...and it was something he studied a lot and something he

believed in and I did too, ...my beliefs have changed quite a bit about

it over the years , merely because I press myself so hard to study

it...and my disillusion with it is in the study of the early


...where there is a lot of good points and principles and good

morals... that is good for a nation , there is no doubt in my mind, ... at

the same time everything is a two edged sword.... 9/54...


10/00...I've read that quite a few times, thinking about that,

it's interesting...


...10/18... well, I 've seen a lot of pain and a lot of misery , and

I've seen a lot of lying and underhandedness and I've seen a lot of

things that I believed in myself , that to end up being not what they

really were , not what I believed they were, for one example the

constitution ....

...10/42... I remember when I grew up, when I was a young

teenager, my father gave me a constitution and a declaration of

independence and started lecturing me on the constitution and how

it got the meaning that it did...and what the meaning was, we used to

go over some of these words because I didn't understand them...some

of the wording didn't make sense to me as a young kid , but I came

to believe that the law is the law is the law...11/09...



...you've got to obey the law, well in reality the law obeys the

politics , judicial interpretation is a means of rerouting the law to fit

the needs of the governing people...I've seen a lot of real tragedy,

...the thing is sometimes you know, I look at it gee whiz, these other

people can't understand, it's impossible for em to understand

because they didn't go thru it...


...and things like, for example you said yourself, gee whiz, if

somebody sees you carrying guns around, they naturally think

you're up to something terrible, right, and people are like


people do judge before the fact, people are very much so, this

is the herd mentality to do that...


...12/19... oh I think it's very positive, I think, I look it over and

I think about this a lot, it's been painful , I've been stripped of

everything that I ever had, you know, my family, my wife, my kids,

my father, everything, all of my so called freedoms, and uh, at the

same time I see a lot of things that Ive gained.... for example things

that I've studied, my understanding of the system, my determination

that I had to understand the politcial significance of all of


...uh, what I think the future is going to be, it's given me a lot of

insight into a lot of things, I definately believe that our country is

definately going to be falling apart, they're not rebuilding anything...

it's crumbling and peole are exploiting as fast and as hard as they

can to get what they can get before the dust starts flying, and I see

in all of this, I see things that appear to be solu tions ... how I would

ever impliment something like that I don't know...but none the less it

has put me in a position to understand these things real well, and I

think without a doubt if you never struggle I think you always stay

weak in a lot of ways and I think struggle does perfect us...13/57...


14/07... well, I think , he died the man that he was, he

represented what he represented, he didn't compromise, ...He fought

for what he believed, he always fought for what he believed... and he

was killed for what he belived, and I respect that, that means a lot to





...and it does mean a lot to a lot of other people too, especially

when they become aware of what he was fighting and why...14/38...

...I think that, he would much rather to die like he did, than to

be like everybody else , become apathetic, you know, who really

cares... and sit down and just let it go, he wasn't that kind of



....15/07... well he despised lawyers, just like I do...


...a legal approach, I don't know....


...no hopes, no not really...15/40...

...I don't know...

...I've been to the parole board three times...15/55...


...oh sure, I'm sure of it... they always make a note to ask me if

I still believe the same way I did when this all happened...and, that's

the problem...


...I don't know... I think they'd like to see my spirit broken, you

know they sent me to a prison as far away from home as they could

have...16/53... it's the real ghetto of the fed. prison system here... the

theory is that I'm supposed to be in a level 3 institution, I'm a level

three prisoner...but I'm in a high security , a maximum security

prison...I'm supposed to be as close to home as possible in a security

level institution befitting me...this of course isn't the case...the object

here is to keep me as far from home as possible, separate me from

my family, keep my contact down...as much as possible... 17/36...

...try to disillusion me, wear me away, I think all in all, it's done

mor good to strengthen me , than to, cause somethimes you can fuel

yourself on you bitterness too...17/55...


...18/14... well, they dealt with it like , just like the people in

the country in this country that rule this country would like them to

handle it...18/26...




...they kept the issues, the real issues from public scrutiny.

They flared the issues, they sensationalized the deaths of the

marshals, what kind of fanatics we were, they labelled us neo-nazis ,

other various terms... this has had a long range effect...18/54...


...in this country, the labelling of people, the powers that be, if

we want to call them that for the time being, when they want to

keep someone from reaching the public, with any kind of a message,

the first tactic is to smear him...19/12...

... call him a facist, a neonazi, put a stigma on it, this

automatically, because of the american mentality, this automatically

turns them off from listening to him as far as credibility is

concerned, they may hear him, but it never really has a meaning...

they did this in our case, there were a number of things that

happened, I remember, the govt. went with their propaganda

campaign and then the judge very conveniently issued a gag order

on us so that we couldn't tell our side of the story...19/51...



...these kind of things happened thru out the whole process, we were,

it was a real battle, it wasn't even a real battle, that's not even fair,

we never even had a chance...20/08...


...and of course, in court, we weren't allowed to bring up our

political ideals, even though this was the basis for the whole case,

you know...20/22...

...this is where it all stemmed from, our political and religious

ideology...this was the whole thing, and they didn't want us to bring

this up. they wanted us to isolate ourselves, to well on feb. 13 you

shot some US marshals, right? Sure we did...20/40...




...and case closed,... but what about all these other years when

they were terrorizing my dad, and they were terrorizing his

employers, and they were harrassing him and harassing him, and the

numerous other things they did thru out the years, does that become

meaningless , that had no part in this? Of course it did...21/02...


...21/11... well, there was a, you know it was pretty funny,

cause the govt.s case came out with a lot of variables. they uh, even

though they spent a lot of work to get a case together, they still came

up with a lot of variables...21/32...

...you know like when they testified, just for example, when a

US marshal or an FBI agent interviews a witness, he takes notes and

then he revizes the notes and puts it in a statement form...and the

staement form , as a general rule, you'll find this to be true, and the

statement form usually conforms to the govt.s case, whereas the

notes that he took doesn't necessarily do that and this is why the

govt. doesn't like to use tape recorders...22/09...

...because you can't alter the tape recorder, because what's

there is there, ....so it's a lot easier to take notes and then they can

change the notes to fit the case as the case develops, well this

happened thru out the case ...not just with us, but with all the

witnesses...we had witnesses that said, gee, well I never said that...


...I don't know where he got that from and in a couple of cases

we actually got the notes that they had taken and the difference

between the notes and the official stgatmetn were like day and night,

but it didn't seem to matter, nothing seemed to matter... 22/50...


...23/22,... he made contact with somebody...


...23/40... he knew what was happening...and he also knew that

they were going to kill him...


...23/53... well, let's just leave that like that...


...24/05... well, he was sad, you know, he wasn't afraid, you

know, he knew what his fate was going to be when they caught him

...he knew what it was going to be and contrary to what some people

have said, that he would have turned himself in and stuff, I find that

pretty difficult to believe...because even if he had turned himself in,

I know that he didn't believe that they were going to say, okay we

got you, we're going to let them go, because that's not how the

system works...24/42...

...he was under no delusions about what was going to happen

with him, what was happening with us...I don't think he knew

exactly what he should do in that particular situation, I mean, what'll

you do? they got US marshals running all over the country offering

people hundreds of thousands of dollars to turn him in... and I'm not

talking about the little $25,000 public reward...I know for a fact that

they were going around offering tremendous amounts of money to

people who lead them to him... 25/28...


...25/46... well, see I wasn't surprised, I told my mom before

the trial that they were going to do that...uh, I knew they were using

her as a buffer for the sake of the jury, had she not been there , and

not been involved in this, the chances are, probably much more

favorable for us that we would have been acqwuitted or else our

charges would have been much less then they are...26/18...


...and consequently, they understand emotions, these poeple

understand emoitosn, I mean court today, involves a lot of

psychology , a lot of theatrical performance...they emotionalize jurors,

and they're good at this, they know what they're doing and the judge

can control how much emotions are going one way or the other, and

he can just stop you... and what are you going to do about it???

Appeal it? ...26/50...


...that's got nothing to do with that trial...I've seen these things

happen , I've seen at critical points during the trial would just say,

okay, we're not going to get into that any farther, because he knew

what was coming and he didn't want the jury to know what was



...consequently the jury doesn't necesarrily hear a case at all.

...even though they think they heard the whole thing, they didn't

necessarily hear anything...27/18...



...AND THIS happened in this case, although some of these

jurors believed that we were not guilty...27/25...

....I had em interviewed and I've got these tapes, audio tapes

and in transcripts too...we've got a couple of jurors who said, yeah,

gee, these marshals went out there and attacked them, tried to kill

these people, they were only defending themselve, but, we didn't

have no choice but to find them guilty because the judge ordered us



...in his instructions ...course they didn't understand their

duties, they didn't understand the power that they had or anything

like this...27/57...

...I think that this is the ting about this case that makes me the saddest of all...that they grab a bunch of people that are totally

ignorant of the law, totally ignorant of politics, that have never been

faced with anything of this nature ...and they take em in there and

they say okay, you're going to judge these people here, and to see the

ignorance,...I glanced over to the jury a number of times, there were

a lot of things that I wanted to tell the jury, but you know, I looked

at them like sheep...I looked at em and I said, gee, you can't tell these

people that...28/29...

...you know, because these people could never understand



28/44...he was, uh, he wanted the case, for the sole purpose of

the noteriety, he was a young kid, he was basically a divorce lawyer,

was what he was, he had no experience. in criminal law, and I mean

this was somehting like, it would be like taking a sixth grader and

making him the head of the armed services or something, he wasn't

ready for a case like this... now , don't get me wrong, he did a good

job as far as his perspective of the thing...29/22...


...now he and I talked about the politics involved and other

things and it scared the hell out of him...29/29...and he came back to

me one, day and he said gee whiz, all that stuff you've been telling

me is true. He said , man, I don't know about this...and it made him

nervous, he didn't know what to do...I said well, you know, here's

what I want you to do. I said, are you going to be able to do


...and at the last minute as the govt. was resting their case, he

told me he couldn't do it my way, he just couldt do it...and I knew at

that point that was it...because the whole issue was politics, ...yeah,

we killed some US Marshals, and we didn't have any



...30/30... yes, they or Vernon Wegner, they isolated him from

us, heavily. They isolated him from everybody and I instinctively

knew that he was going to make some kind of deal with them.

Becasue he wasn't involved for the sake of the cause. Politics wasn't

his motivating factor, novelty was his motivating factor...and

consewuently, when I found out they had isolated him, I knew what

they were doing, they were putting pressure on him that he coulldn't

stand...he did plead guilty. and I don't even remember what his

charges were, he didn't even remember what his charges

were...31/08... during the trial, I remember one of the defense attnys

asked him, well Mr. Wegner, you plead guilty , right? and he said

Yeah. And they asked him, well, to what? and he just sat there...and

sat there and sat there and sat there...and the defense attny asked

him, well, did you hear me? and he said , yeah I heard you ...he said,

well, what did you plead guilty to? ..., he said I don't know. I'd have

to look at the paper work and see, he said, I have no idea...31/33...


...and basically they wanted somebody to plead guilty and he

was the weak link. they wanted someboyd to plead guilty because,

you know, here you've got a group of guys together, if one of them's

guilty, they're all guilty...this is the idea , anyway and it carries a lot

of weight...31/52... because people are emotional creatures and they

think much more with their emotions than they do with

reality,...DAve Broer they tried to work a deal with him and he

wouldn't work with them at all...I mean dave had an impecable


...I mean not matter how apathetic the jury was, I can't imagine

them finding him guilty of anything, what did he do? What was his



...he prayed...32/35... yeah, they found him guilty...and dave

had no idea what was going on, he was coming to the farm anyway ,

so I said look why you don't take dad, we didn't even discuss it with

him...because we figured, ehh, it's probably just a false alarm ...dave

had no idea, vernon certainly didn't have any idea...he was just there

and if you had been there, you would be here...(STRONG



...33/15... who knows?... he fired some rounds at fairly long

distance , after I had been shot, matter of fact after I had been shot a

number of times and was on the ground and still being shot...33/28...

then he started shooting and he shot at the ramcharger...now,

whether he hit anybody or not, what difference does it



...33/38... No! No...no, it was impossible to tie anybodies bullet

to anybody through ballistics...the theory of the govt. was, gee whiz

the marshals are dead, you were there, you've got to be



...everybody's got to be guilty, you see this was the defence

that our attnys used was not the right defense ...they were saying,

well, gee whiz, you can't prove that this guy shot this guy...it doesn't

matter, ...if I shot all of them it wouldn't matter...they needed to be



...I realize that sounds kinda rough, especially to the general

public, I probably wouldn't want them to hear that, because they've

never faced anything like that...34/33...


...34/53...sure... in myself, well, uh, I still believe in the cause,

more so than ever, now, I understand it better, I wish had

understood it better then...I would have, you know in that particular

situation...at that point in time, let's say, it came back to the point

where, there we were, the guns were on us. and we had a decision to

make, at that point I would have made the same decision that I

did...what else could we do? ...before that I would have done things

considerably different...35/47...

...our organizational efforts would have been done differently, I

would have still been doing that...


...36/03... What the cause is? The cuase is higher culture and I

think I'll just leave it at that...36/12...


...36/29... Yeah, (re: Karen Russel) ...well it probably wouldn't be

good for me to run into her. It'd probably be a lot worse for




...36/55... I don't know, I've got a lot of em...(memories of dad)...

...37/08... bunches of em are popping up...

...37/17... well, he was so concerned, so caring with all of his

kids, I remember at a very early age, but he was like this with

kids...and uh, you know there 's so many experiences, so many

things,...the thing that I'll cherish the most about him , is the fact that

he was an honest man, he didn't lie, he didn't steal, he didn't cheat.

he stood where he stood for a reason... many times he'd been offered

jobs , that paid a lot of money and wouldn't take them because they

demanded that he compromise his values and he wouldn't do


...and he wasn't a materialist, he was the kind of people that

have always built the quality in a nation, every nation, you know,

every culture throughout history, the people that saw farther, that

cared more, that sacrificed themselves, ..and this is what I see in him,

you know, this is what I want to carry on... 38/47...


...38/55 ...well they both did... but, uh, dad always disiplined

me differently... uh, he rarely spanked his kids, he would sit us down

and he would tell us, like, he would explain to us, why we shouldn't

be doing what we were doing...and he would go into a long

explanation about it and how bad it was, or how somebody could get

hurt or various other things...39/26...his method was, bringing to the

situation an understanding...39/32...

..where my mom being the emotional type of person she is, she

would react...and out would come the flyswatter or something a

different kind of...


40/46... well, you know, I remember an incident, I'll tell you

because it's something I've thought about a lot of times...we were ah,

when I was a kid , my dad, he really liked pheasants for an example.

And, when he was a kid there were a lot of pheasants in our area in

ND, but they had pretty much become extinct in our area due to the

predators and thier habitat was detroyed ...and stufff, I don't think it

was so much the habitat , I think it was the predators more that

anything...because they still had plenty to eat and a good

environment...41/22...and I remember, he taught us, if you see a

horned owl, shoot him because he's a terrible parasite, or a terrible

predator on these pheasants and gross and small game...41/35...

...and because we shot small game and we ate it, we were, we

took care of it too and I remember one time a horned owl landed in a

tree about 3/4s of a mile from our place...and dad got me and my

brother and he said look there's a horned owl down here and we're

going to go get him, so off we went , I had a little 16 guage single

shot which belonged to my grandfather, matter of fact the feds stole

that too, my brother had a little 20 guage shotgun double barral that

my dad bought my mom right after they got married...42/18...


they took that too , I remember I asked my dad when we

started in there, I said, if I see a cotton tail can I shoot him? because

we ate cotton tails, and he thought about it for a minute, and he said,

yeah, okay, he said, but if you shoot the cottontail, it'll scare the

horned owl away, but then we might not get the horned owl

anyway...so anyway, I more or less, I wanted to shoot a cotton


...you know, and you know to take it home,...so I was walking in

towards the trees from the edge of the field and a big jackrabbitt

took off, I was mayber six years old ... and I seen this big white tail

plopping and I pulled up and shot it...and I was just happy as can be,

I'd scared the horned owl away but I was happy...so when I came

back down thru the trees, dad asked me, what did you shoot? I said

I shot a cotton tail, he said you did, I said yeah, ...He said, well go get

it...so I ran all the way over thru the trees and I drug this big

jackrabbit back ... 43/30...

...and , I drug it up there and dad looked at me and he looked

at this rabbit and he shook his head like this , and he said, he said,

that's not a cottontail......I grabbed the tail and I said, look , I thought

that's how you determined which type of rabbit was which, if it's tail

looked like it was made out of cotton, right...43/55...

...and uh, because I had just started hunting, and I mean I'm

still hunting with dad and he said, no, that's a jackrabbit and he was

explaining it to me , and he said , not only is that a jackrabbit, that's

a momma rabbit,...and he showed me her tits , and I felt her belly

and I could feel the little ones inside of her, she was just ready to

have them...and he said, in a couple of days she would have had

those baby rabbits, and he said, now all those baby rabbits are going

to die... 44/29...

...and I was just tore up , I mean I was crying, you know, I

wanted him to cut the baby rabbits out and let me take em home

becasue it was my job to take care of them, because I had killed their


...and he said, no, they wouldn't make it... and I've never

forgotten that, and time and time again, I think back, and I

remember a lot of incidents like that...44/54..

...and, I mean, because he would never shot anything unless it

needed to be shot...45/01...

...and that includes US marshals, you know, I mean, he would

shoot a predator, if it needed to be shot, he didn't shoot predators

just to be shooting em...




...you know, if you had foxes out here that were killing all the

game animals, they had to be kept down and he did that...45/21...

...because he loved animals, but he loved the game animals

more than the predators...and everything had it's value and just like

in our situation, obviously he loved us more than he did the US

Marshals...45/34...he wasn't the kind of guy who would just go out

and shoot somebody because he got mad or anything like that, it

wasn't like that...45/39...






...46/09... well, uh, she's durable...(good laugh)...


...46/24... No, he had a good sense of humor, but he was a very

serious person...


...46/49... well, he didn't tell dirty jokes... his jokes were, when

he joked, was a reflection of something, always had a meaning to it,

always had another meaning to it...it wasn't just a wasted joke, to be

told and forgotten, it always had some sort of moral principle behind



...47/38... not really much (re: GK's final days)


47/46... Yeah, bout a week after the trial...and uh, I don't know how

true this is, but, according to some information...you wanna shut that


...48/37... It's uh, I mean they'll know who it is, if anybody ever

sees it, you know what I mean, it's uh, I've got the transcripts, and

the audio of the interview with the other person...I think that it

would probably be interesting...49/08... if you took like a couple of

these jurors in specific, that really feel real bad because we're here,

and uh, I think you could something like this with them, at the end,

when you do your conclusion for example, you know, ...49/27... these

are the juries, you could make a dramatic thing out of it, if you

wanted to, because.... there are some there ...


...49/45... , there was one juror, I can tell you this too, because

it really infuriated me when I first found out about it, this one juror,

was really mad, because, my mom didn't go to prison for at least two

years... and his reasoning was, ...50/03...


...she was my father's wife...I mean I've got it on tape, it's not

someting I've got on tape, it's not something I'm making up...I've got

it on tape, he said, you know I knew it the first night I saw it on the

news they were guilty, bla, bla, bla...50/19... and this was the way

things... this was one of the jurors...


...50/34... oh,oh, oh,...after the thing down in arkasas, well, if

you had cold bloodedly murdered somebody and butchered em and

burned houses down, would you hire some investigator to go tell the

public about it...???



51/20... well, you know, I'm afraid that people don't learn from

other people's experiences...but I wish they would, I wish we could

all do that...I think if the public ever stopped to look into the case,

they would all be shocked. Because the general public in this

country, they don't measure events by their reality or things like

this, sometimes things are sensationized for em to draw em...51/59...

...but, they really have no idea, of where this country has gone

in the past forty years. And they have no idea of what the future

can really be. and I'm talking about the near future. and things can

happen fast, when things get to such an enormous


...engenedered by by such instability as our economic system

for example, the racial and cultural tension in the country, these

things can explode and cause havoc, that they really have no


...that they could face themselves, in the meantime because

there are people that are aware of this. and they are aware that

things are in the critical condition that they are...these people are not

allowed to address the public...52.54...ever, not ever...you know I saw

Lyndon LaRouche on TV the one night. The guy is kind of a strange

guy in some ways, and I'd read a little bit about him, here and

there...I don't pay much attention when the media starts slandering

somebody... I say, gee whiz, what's their motive in this, my do we

keep hearing that term, over and over...again, the public doesn't do


...I was watcing him on tv late one night, ...he was talking about

the federal reserve and the economy and all the things that are

happening and he made a good program. 53/46...

...he understood what he was talking about, I don't know about

some of his other beliefs. But what he was saying were things that I

had studied very very deeply myself. And what he was saying was

true and right to the point and a couple of the guys that were

watching tv with me, said, gee, he's saying the things you've been

saying...54/08... I said he won't last long, the guy's either dying or

going to prison, mark my words...and he's in prison right now...



...and I knew he was going, there was absolutely no doubt in

my mind...


54/22... and various little things, for example, I know my attny.

all of our attnys. thought gee whiz, we've got a hell of a case.

They're going to overturn this on appeal.. ...we've got so many issues,

bla, bla, bla, and I knew, I knew what was going to happen ...54/38...

you know sometimes I let myself hold a little bit of false hope...I

remember I told my attny. ...we had a three judge panel on the

appelate court,He said, what do you think's going to happen? ... I said

well, two judges are going to vote against us and one's going to vote

for us...and I was confident of this... 55/02...

...He said, well, what makes you think that? I said, well, I've

studied Masonry , and I've studied the political system in this

country. And I said, I know that's what's going to happen. He said, I

don't think so, I think we're going to win this sure thing...I said, well

soon enough we'll know...and sure enough it came back , two to one

against us...he said, well, we're going to get an embank hearing...

...I said, what's an embank hearing?...55/31... I never heard of

it before...he said we'll have nine judges...I said, well, we'll end up

with the same, thing, I said, four of em will vote in our favor ...I said ,

five of them will vote aginst us...I said, they always run it close like

this to give you hope...55/46...


...they want you to have hope, they don't want you to take

other action...they want you to hope that the system will help you,

hope that the law will protect you in the long run, hope that justice

will win...55/56...and uh, it just so happened that one of the judges

couldn't make it, so we had an eight judge panel, and he asked me

right before we got the decision, he asked me, what do you think is

going to happen? I said, well, ...56/09...

...I said since we've only got eight, three will vote for us, four

against us , and that's exactly what happened...56/15...


...and the think about it is, after you're right about it so many

times, consistently, when you analyze political activities and you say

this is going to happen or that's going to happen, I mean luck can

play a part. in your guess, well, after a while, at least for me, I'm

pretty convinced , I understand how the system works...56/39...