JACK SWAN INTERVIEW:

JACK SWAN was Gordon's original probation officer in Texas during his trial down there.

TAPE #21

Looking at the papers and we're talking about revocation of warrant...those guys up there asked me about that???

1/50 ... well, was it pulled back or just not, let's see...the best of my knowldege we had... it would be after that motion...

2/33 ...okay, the summons would be with no warrant issued, you just summons the man in...and he wouldn't do that...(JJ saz: #110 right there...)

4/03 ...Okay what happened there is, when he apparently failed to file his income tax... we discussed the matter and then talk to the court about the matter...we pretty much knew that he wasn't going to do it... I'm sure I had a conference with the judge... 4/38 ... and said this, that he's not goin g to come in...there's going to be some blood shed, he's going to go down or something like this and so the judge said this is not worth it...I agreed with him and we backed off... I don't know in your talking with the other individuals whether this came out or not... I think if I can remember ... there was the old marshal, was about to retire and he said, I'm not sending my men in to get em killed or do anything, ...we're going to do it on my time and when I think it's best and thus with this in the background, we also knew it was going to be...so we backed off...now, right now I can't remember, but I cannot remember, ...I wish we had the file, but I cannot remember...but apparently, what is that date... the second one there .... (JJ= Aug. 15, 1980 the summons was returned, served, with a note that GK said he wasn't going to appear... 5 wks. later, Sept 23, 1980)

...okay, we withdrew it...what's the next date after that?...(JJ=Mar. 30, 1981...) Okay...I can remember conversations with the probation officers up there and saying look we don't go out, he lives up there, he can see you coming...you know, we don't want that... I think even Judge Button and I agreed, that heh, just stay away from it. It's just not worth it! ...6/41... and so this is pretty much the feeling of the situation...

6/56 ...looking down, giggles...) ...7/07 ... well, we don't talk to the marshals, we talke to the probation officers who do their thing there... (HE THINKS AND LAUGHS) 7/25... well, (what's the giggle?JJ) ...you want to go off for a minute? ...(I hate to...) ...do you, well, (smiling) ...well, I'll say it this way, we were going thru the warrants, the deliguent warrants, the decision was made that these diliquent warrants should have action... that's a prefer to say about that ...

8/20 ...basically what came down, was there was a decision came down because warrants were deliquent. Or cases were not up to date that action be taken against it, so we issued another one and sent it up there and asked the marshal to see what he could do about it... 8/40...

9/25... Well, they report to us as a condition of his probation, when he dind't file, they would tell us and then we would take action on it. But for the reissuance of the warrant, that was not the reason that I can recall...9/42...

10/00 ...well, okay, I'm Jack R. Swan, the case was assigned to me to do the presentence report for the court ...now as far as supervising him,... he went off to prison and he came back out... I was actually just the probation officer who did the presentence report and submitted it to the court... the jury finds him guilty and then the judge says, It will be my responsibiliyt to senctence you Mr. Kahl and it will be done a presentence report and it will be done by a probation officer...and it's whoever is next up in line,...I raised my hand and he said Mr. Swan will be doing the presentence report...what we usually do, is we take him from the courtroom if he's on bond ...11/25... I think he was still on bond... we had several conferences...this is where I need my file... I took him from the courtroom... we say what we need is this, this and this... it has about 13 headings... IRS report, family, health, education , and background...military, it's just a complete background on him...12/20... and thus we made our appts. and we sat down and he had good records ...I can remember his military records, he had those... pretty much conducted the report... after the report, I usually sit down before it goes to the typist and read it to him to make sure that it's accurate... he has a statement in there... Mr. Kahl, I would want you to write this out...when you write it out, it is your flavor, it is your report, you're talking to the judge and I'm sure he did this, know Mr. Kahl...13/10 ...

14/12 ...he's short, medium build and wears the same hairdo as I do,...I called him a little milktoast type indivudual...you would not picture him as being in the type of trouble he was in...you just don't picture him that way...

15/08 ...he was very cooperative, very quiet,..very courteous...attentive and wanted to do everything we asked for is report...and that's pretty much what went on...

15/44 ...when you talk to him about taxes, he would get a little...how would you explain it...I dind't want to get him disturbed, not that I was afraid of him...I tried to explain to him that all of us pay taxes, all of have to, if you don't there's penalties...I remember saying, ...Mr. Kahl, probably everybody in the world would have lined up behind you, if you could have got it going right....and this was one of his problems, he said he'd tried to go thru his legislators and tried to do this type action and this type action and everything...I believe if I remember right, that he did not find it constitutionally, well regardless of that, we've got to get this done.... I understand where you're coming from in your feelings and things, nobody likes to pay taxes, but we do...he kind of took on and with that appeasement that I was trying to say, ...

...17/15... Heh, I understand where you're coming from and you've got guts for what you've done, now whether it's right or wrong for this situation, you've got a lot of gall to do it... but still it's against the law and I don't think I could do it...so we'd talk a little bit like that and he'd bring up the consituion and all of that...I'd say I can't argue that, cause I'm not an expert in that area. He was friendly toward me...17/50 ...

...17/52...like I was telling you, the incident when Mr. Rinehardt passed away in the bureau of prisons, well, as represenatives of the govt. and the closest ones around here, they asked us to go out to Mrs. Rinehardts...so we went out there and the gentleman that was there was the head of the posse comitatus, so when we took the message in, I ...there was uh, of course had to tell Mrs. rinhardt, ...this gentleman came to the door and asked who we were and he recognized us, we've got a message for Mrs. Rinehardt and it's not good, and he says gosh, oh no,...he turned around and called Mrs. Rinehardt and as soon as Mrs. Rhinehardt saw us , oh hod, she just kind of went in shock... of course he'd been having problems in the institution and like you say, off the record a while ago, that they had claimed that he was not gettting proper treatment... whatever regardless of that , we had to deliver the thing, I said , I've got bad news, Mrs. Rhinehardt , I'm sorry to have to tell you, she said well you killed my husband...19/16... and the other genteleman, the head of the posse comitatus at that time, said oh, no, remember these are the guys that tried to get our side of the story over to the court, and I was very appreciative and thankful for that, cause bless her heart, she took it hard...19/38...

19/55 ...well, that's the story that I heard, that he had a heart attack...I think he had a heart problem to begin with...when these allegations came out that he was not treated, that they did ignore him, well, I can't buy that, because if you've ever been a bureau of prison facility, they'll get you someplace as soon as they can for help...that's all, but, that's their feelings for the govt. coming out, very strong feelings...20/29...

20/42... well when I retired I took that file at home and you welcome to it... yeah they had sent me some articles and he's got his gun out next to him...21/15... I think they're in that file... I'll be happy to make you some

21/53... yes, I liked him... No...I was very interested in it when I got it back from the military records center... but it was very typical... uhh, ...he didn't brag, he didn't boast...he didn't say anything... he's like most veterans who come back and experience that, they don't say much...I would try to get him to talk about it, because I was in the reserves and he would say, yeah, it was bad. I would say, man you saw a lot of action ...most of em won't talk about that ...you've got his record, what'd he have, two purple hearts...Okay, now I've got the, if that file comes... he saw a lot of action, he was an expert rifleman, he saw a lot of action...I believe Judge Bunton will let you have that...23/12...

23/42...no, he saw a lot of combat, sticks in my mind...

25/20... I think that he thought that the Govt. was going to do as much as they could toward him...that he was an enemy and that he would be punished...I don't think it came as a shock to him...25/41...

26/04... the sentencing philosophy in the this area is pretty much some sort of conefinement, maybe not a period, but some period of time, yes I think most of em, out here in this part of the country get some type of a jail sentence or conefinement...

27/00 ...sentencing recomenadtions are not seen by the attny. or the client... we made comments and recommendations on a separate sheet ...show the judge how many have been sentenced in this area...

28/58... right, you're going to , we're going to make you an example...yes, probably so...

30/20 ...Oh, I wishd I had the file, cause what I do in the offense report...I would have showd what he owed,...the first thing I would say, I don't believe it was that much, but I would have to see my file... I hope it comes in and I will get with you, and we can clear that up...30/55

31/06 ...I don't believe he was making much money if I remember right. thus he wouldn't have been paying much,... he just failed...

END TAPE @ #21:31:30

JACK SWAN INTERVIEW:

TAPE #21:32

32/34 ...I think he has senior judge status in San Antonio...

Judge Suttle, I think he still has his chambers ...I'll bet he would talk with you...

33/39...I don't remember that I was surprised...cause like I explaineed, most judges in this part of the country give some jail time...

35/31 ...umm, surprised the heck out of me, and then again, having read the posse comitaturs and hearing how radical they were...he'd gone off to prison and got out,... it ...I didn't think it would result in the loss of life. ...I thought we'd have to move against his probation , but I just didn't see his violence that much...really wasn't also thinking about his son being up there too, and that he'd got that close, until the probation officer up there started advising us about what was going on...and then we had the situation of them not wanting to move on him, until , at their time and such... it's just a shame that it happened...God, just a shame...36/56...

37/13 ,,, yeah, okay,... that could be part of it... the marshal was going to retire and uh,...and he just wasn't going to get his men hurt over something like that and he was going to pick his time and place to be served and then the new marshal came in...

38/04 ... that woulnd' have any thing to do with the marshalss.. that had to do with deliquent cases, nothing being done,...warant or not,... where were they what was going on... that was one of the cases that went like that...If I had my file I'm sure I called up there and talked to him and he still wasn't doing anything....and that we made the decision , that heh, he's like anybody else, he's got to uphold it... we've got to make a move and I probably went back to the court and explained it...and said judge , this is what it's going to be... you have to uphold what's right and so we made the decision to issue... it's just a shame that it came down to what it did...39/21 ...

40/10 ...I wishd I'd a done a docu. on some of my cases, you'd have to label it fiction... 55 is too dad gum young...to retire...

41/41 ...supposedly rehabilitaiton... I've never rehabilitated anybody...they make up their mind which road they want to go down....

42/32...cause I'm thinking more...what we discussed is probably what went down... we discussed someting about it had to be done...

45/00 ...(Jack talks about what he heard happened at the roadblock)

47/48... well, we had certainly sent the info. up there saying this is dangerous...

49/27... you should be right up on it, before you know it...(roadblock)

51/24... not with a group that carries weapons, they're not afraid of you... 51/35 ...(good whistle)

52/13 ...oh yes, but what got him started, you see a man with that war record, coming out and lead a normal life...I wish I'd a had more time...53/29

END TAPE END JACK SWAN INTERVIEW